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	<title>Comments on: Marines Looking at Adjustable M16 Stocks</title>
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		<title>By: ReconTeam</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5287</link>
		<dc:creator>ReconTeam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5287</guid>
		<description>I say leave the fix stock, possibly perform a minor redesign for use with body armor, but generally leave it as is.

We might as well get a whole new rifle and carbine before further modifications anyway. Even if the military won&#039;t select/develop a new caliber, there are plenty of 5.56x45mm designs that would offer an improvement in my opinion. I fear the AR15 fans will beat me to death for saying that however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say leave the fix stock, possibly perform a minor redesign for use with body armor, but generally leave it as is.</p>
<p>We might as well get a whole new rifle and carbine before further modifications anyway. Even if the military won&#8217;t select/develop a new caliber, there are plenty of 5.56&#215;45mm designs that would offer an improvement in my opinion. I fear the AR15 fans will beat me to death for saying that however.</p>
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		<title>By: Murdoc Online &#187; Friday Linkzookery &#8211; 21 Aug 2009</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5260</link>
		<dc:creator>Murdoc Online &#187; Friday Linkzookery &#8211; 21 Aug 2009</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5260</guid>
		<description>[...] Marines Looking at Adjustable M16 Stocks But Conway is against it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Marines Looking at Adjustable M16 Stocks But Conway is against it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bram</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5244</link>
		<dc:creator>Bram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5244</guid>
		<description>I was being sarcastic about the old rifles. 

Having been in both branches, the Army puts far less emphasis on close combat that the Corps (the Army National Guard never even issued us bayonets or K-Bars).  Therefore, the Marines are going to take Army opinions with a big grain of salt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was being sarcastic about the old rifles. </p>
<p>Having been in both branches, the Army puts far less emphasis on close combat that the Corps (the Army National Guard never even issued us bayonets or K-Bars).  Therefore, the Marines are going to take Army opinions with a big grain of salt.</p>
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		<title>By: Murdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5239</link>
		<dc:creator>Murdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5239</guid>
		<description>For the record, I&#039;m not trying to screw up anyone&#039;s Corps. I don&#039;t really know what the right opinion is. I would think that a lot of information could be gained from the US Army (with M4s) and the Canadians (with their collapsible stock M16-type rifle).

One thing: We didn&#039;t have this problem with M1s and M14s in previous generations because previous generations didn&#039;t have the armor today&#039;s troops have. Though sometimes uninformed boobs want to go overboard and make every possible piece of armor available mandatory &quot;to protect the troops,&quot; I don&#039;t think anyone wants to get rid of ALL the armor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I&#8217;m not trying to screw up anyone&#8217;s Corps. I don&#8217;t really know what the right opinion is. I would think that a lot of information could be gained from the US Army (with M4s) and the Canadians (with their collapsible stock M16-type rifle).</p>
<p>One thing: We didn&#8217;t have this problem with M1s and M14s in previous generations because previous generations didn&#8217;t have the armor today&#8217;s troops have. Though sometimes uninformed boobs want to go overboard and make every possible piece of armor available mandatory &#8220;to protect the troops,&#8221; I don&#8217;t think anyone wants to get rid of ALL the armor.</p>
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		<title>By: Bram</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5237</link>
		<dc:creator>Bram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5237</guid>
		<description>Exactly!  We didn&#039;t have these problems with the M1 and M14!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly!  We didn&#8217;t have these problems with the M1 and M14!</p>
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		<title>By: KsR</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5235</link>
		<dc:creator>KsR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 05:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5235</guid>
		<description>Tam, are you introducing logical, combat-experience-backed reasoning for a collapsible stock? How are you supposed to 3 of the 5 Killing Blows (Smash, Vertical Butt-Stroke, and Horizantial(sic) Butt-Stroke) with a collapsible stock designed ONLY for making the rifle more easily fired at various optimal LOP?

Tam, don’t screw up my Corps. Things were different in the old Corps, so dammit, stop screwing up my Corp.

KsR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tam, are you introducing logical, combat-experience-backed reasoning for a collapsible stock? How are you supposed to 3 of the 5 Killing Blows (Smash, Vertical Butt-Stroke, and Horizantial(sic) Butt-Stroke) with a collapsible stock designed ONLY for making the rifle more easily fired at various optimal LOP?</p>
<p>Tam, don’t screw up my Corps. Things were different in the old Corps, so dammit, stop screwing up my Corp.</p>
<p>KsR</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5234</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5234</guid>
		<description>Give &#039;em the Sully stock or something similar then.

You&#039;ve got a shorter LOP for use in armor, and a fixed stock for defensive maneuvers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Give &#8216;em the Sully stock or something similar then.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve got a shorter LOP for use in armor, and a fixed stock for defensive maneuvers.</p>
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		<title>By: CTone</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5229</link>
		<dc:creator>CTone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5229</guid>
		<description>Marines are also sensitive to anything that would increase their logistics burden.  Adopting a new stock makes them change the way that they field and supply the rifles, as well as adjusting the training and marksmanship manual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marines are also sensitive to anything that would increase their logistics burden.  Adopting a new stock makes them change the way that they field and supply the rifles, as well as adjusting the training and marksmanship manual.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bram</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5223</link>
		<dc:creator>Bram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5223</guid>
		<description>I agree that the stock does not always fit well with body armor on.  I don&#039;t agree that the solution is a chintzy stock that I can&#039;t use to crack commie heads.

How about designing shoulder of the vest to fit the stock?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the stock does not always fit well with body armor on.  I don&#8217;t agree that the solution is a chintzy stock that I can&#8217;t use to crack commie heads.</p>
<p>How about designing shoulder of the vest to fit the stock?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel E. Watters</title>
		<link>http://www.gunpundit.com/3391.php/comment-page-1#comment-5222</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel E. Watters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gunpundit.com/?p=3391#comment-5222</guid>
		<description>LTC Dave Lutz (USMC, Ret.) was in charge of the M16A1 PIP program at JSSAP back when he was a Major.  He has publicly said that the change in stock length was intended to force a change in stock molds so that they could introduce the stronger plastic.  The legacy A1 stock molds couldn&#039;t be used with the new material, and he was afraid that some been-counting General would insist on sticking with the original molds if there was no other change.  

The A2 stock would have been even longer, but the proposed length made the rifle too long to fit in existing rifle racks.  Lutz justified the extra length as being based upon Aberdeen Human Engineering Lab data.  However, he specifically stated that he based it upon the 95th percentile measurements, believing that this meant that it would fit all but the upper 5% in size.  Of course, some of us pointed out that this actually meant that the proposed stock length would be too big for 94% of the users.   

Simple viewing of photos of deployed soldiers and Marines with M16A2 and A4 will show some users having to hold the stock over their shoulder in order to get proper eye relief with their iron sights or RCO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LTC Dave Lutz (USMC, Ret.) was in charge of the M16A1 PIP program at JSSAP back when he was a Major.  He has publicly said that the change in stock length was intended to force a change in stock molds so that they could introduce the stronger plastic.  The legacy A1 stock molds couldn&#8217;t be used with the new material, and he was afraid that some been-counting General would insist on sticking with the original molds if there was no other change.  </p>
<p>The A2 stock would have been even longer, but the proposed length made the rifle too long to fit in existing rifle racks.  Lutz justified the extra length as being based upon Aberdeen Human Engineering Lab data.  However, he specifically stated that he based it upon the 95th percentile measurements, believing that this meant that it would fit all but the upper 5% in size.  Of course, some of us pointed out that this actually meant that the proposed stock length would be too big for 94% of the users.   </p>
<p>Simple viewing of photos of deployed soldiers and Marines with M16A2 and A4 will show some users having to hold the stock over their shoulder in order to get proper eye relief with their iron sights or RCO.</p>
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